KEY TAKEAWAYS FROM HH HARIVILAS MAHARAJ’S MORNING BHAGAVATAM CLASS ON ARE MAYAVADIS WHO MERGE INTO BRAHMAN SAME AS BONAFIDE IMPERSONALISTS – 5/8/22:
- In the Brahmajyoti the spirit souls on account of their impersonal views are devoid of a body, exactly like here in Maya there are ghosts who are devoid of any gross bodies.
- The ghost being devoid of a body, he suffers terribly because he is unable to satisfy his senses. The spirit souls in the Brahmajyoti, although they have no desire for sense gratification, still they feel inconvenience like the ghost, and they fall down again in the Maya’s atmosphere and develop a material body.
- In the Bhagavat therefore it is said that persons who are impersonalists and do not develop the dormant devotional attitude, their intelligence is not pure, because for want of a spiritual body, they come down again to the material world.
- In the Bhagavad-gita it is clearly said by the Lord that the only way of not coming back to the material world is to be promoted to the spiritual planets. For the impersonalists there is no such assurance of not falling down in the whole Vedic literature.
- The conclusion is that without developing the spiritual body and without being situated on one of the spiritual planets, the so-called liberation is also illusion, or it is not complete.
- A spirit soul who falls down from the Brahmajyoti to the Kingdom of Maya may have a chance of associating with a pure devotee, and then he may be elevated to the spiritual planets of Vaikuntha or to Goloka Vrindaban.
- From the Brahmajyoti there is no direct promotion to the spiritual planets, and it is clearly stated in the Bhagavatam that such souls fall down: patanty adha.
- Existence in the impersonal brahma is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.
- The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down. It does not matter where a living entity stays.
- Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence.
- But his relationship with Krsna is never lost, simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position.
- The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new.
Letter to: Rupanuga July 24 1969 Los Angeles
Regarding your question, “what is the difference between the spirit souls comprising the Brahmajyoti and the spirit souls here in Maya?”, in the Brahmajyoti the spirit souls on account of their impersonal views are devoid of a body, exactly like here in Maya there are ghosts who are devoid of any gross bodies. The ghost being devoid of a body, he suffers terribly because he is unable to satisfy his senses. The spirit souls in the Brahmajyoti, although they have no desire for sense gratification, still they feel inconvenience like the ghost, and they fall down again in the Maya’s atmosphere and develop a material body. In the Bhagavat therefore it is said that persons who are impersonalists and do not develop the dormant devotional attitude, their intelligence is not pure, because for want of a spiritual body, they come down again to the material world. In the Bhagavad-gita it is clearly said by the Lord that the only way of not coming back to the material world is to be promoted to the spiritual planets. For the impersonalists there is no such assurance of not falling down in the whole Vedic literature. The conclusion is that without developing the spiritual body and without being situated on one of the spiritual planets, the so-called liberation is also illusion, or it is not complete. A spirit soul who falls down from the Brahmajyoti to the Kingdom of Maya may have a chance of associating with a pure devotee, and then he may be elevated to the spiritual planets of Vaikuntha or to Goloka Vrindaban. From the Brahmajyoti there is no direct promotion to the spiritual planets, and it is clearly stated in the Bhagavatam that such souls fall down: patanty adha.
BG 8.15
After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection.
BG 8.16
From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again.
BG 15.6
That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world.
Whether one achieves BJ by following Mayavadi philosophy or impersonalism. They say everything is false then their philosophy is also false as it belongs to the material world..
Genuine impersonalist does not claim that there is no goloka no vaikunta.. They say that they dont know.. They dont make false statements they stick to what they know..
As long as they come in contact with pure devotee and if they follow instructions they become devotees..
Genuine impersonalists – Sukhdev Goswami, Kumaras,.. Brahman realized..
Kumaras when they reached Vaikunta they smelled the aroma of tulsi leaves at the feet of the lord they got liberated.
Mayavadis dont believe even in the spiritual body, they think they are some kind of light..
Impersonalists they go from Brahman to Material world to Vaikunta planets when in contact with guru who is a pure devotee.. There are lot of diff between both..
Letter to: Jagadisa Feb. 27 1970 Los Angeles
Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krsna is never lost, simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new.
Letter to: Rayarama Dec. 2 1968 Los Angeles
The answer to your question about the marginal energy is that the jiva soul is always called marginal energy whether he is in the spiritual world or in the material world. There are instances where marginal energy jiva souls have fallen from the spiritual world, just like Jaya and Vijaya. So the potency to fall under the influence of the lower energy is always there. And thus the individual jiva soul is called as Krishna’s marginal energy.
Letter to Harer nama Dec. 21 1968 Los Angeles
Your second question about falling down from the brahma-jyotir is answered that it is not that one must fall down, but that they generally fall down. There is a verse in Srimad-Bhagavatam, 10th canto, 2nd chapter, verse 26, which says: “My Dear Lotus Eyed Personality of Godhead, persons who are very proud of becoming one with the brahma effulgence and thereby consider that they have become liberated are factually in a contaminated consciousness on account of the absence of devotional service unto You. Such persons may rise to a high level of spiritual understanding as far as the impersonal brahma-jyotir but on account of the lack of devotional service unto You, they generally fall down again into material contamination.”
The final question which was asked by Tosana about the validity of the story of the sparrow and the ocean, you should know that everything that is found in these scriptures is factual. There is nothing allegory. But you must not depend upon your own limited experience. What happens in different corners of the Lord’s Creation no one can say. But we can hear from the authentic Vedic sources such as the Puranas. This story of the sparrow is found in the Puranas.
Letter to: Jagadisa April 25 1970 Los Angeles
Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence. But those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to Krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down.
Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature? Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs. I hope this will satisfy your questions.
Letter to: Revatinandana June 13 1970 Los Angeles
The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahma is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.
The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down. It does not matter where a living entity stays. In the material world also there are different stages of living conditions, and to remain in the brahman effulgence is also another phase of that fallen condition. Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that conditioned souls by their pious activities are elevated to the higher planetary system, but as soon as the stock of pious activities is finished he again comes down on the earthly planet. Similarly those who are elevated beyond the planetary system to the brahma effulgence, they are also prone to fall down as much as a living entity from the higher planetary system.
As such those who are thinking that they are liberated by being situated in brahman effulgence are described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam as impurely intelligent. In other words, they are actually not liberated, and because they are not actually liberated they again come down to the material world as much as a living entity elevated to the higher planetary system comes down to this earthly planet. So we do not accept anyone elevated to the brahman effulgence as actually liberated.
Letter to: Jagadisa July 9 1970 Los Angeles
Regarding your several questions: Where are the spirit souls coming from that are taking microbe bodies? It is not a matter of any particular body. These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities. There is no “new” soul. “New” and “old” are due to this material body, but the soul is never born and never dies, so if there is no birth how there can be new soul?
Your second question: Is there any particular reason why some spirit souls become directed toward Krsna Consciousness in the first place? How does one get on the progressive path of elevation to Krsna Consciousness? The answer is that it is by the mercy of the Lord that one comes in contact with a Spiritual Master Who can revive the dormant Krsna consciousness of the conditioned soul. Krsna is always merciful and He comes Himself, He leaves behind Him instruction like the Bhagavad-gita, etc. and He sends His representative, the Spiritual Master. In this way the merciful propaganda is going on.
Every individual soul has got the discriminating power, so those who are pious they take advantage of this opportunity of the mercy of the Lord. But both pious and impious souls are being convinced by this Krsna consciousness movement. The human being is supposed to be intelligent more than the animals, so the intelligent persons or pious persons are coming in contact with Krsna consciousness.
Regarding your questions with reference to B.G. III,5, and the Vedic hymn quoted in the purport to B.g. 14.15 and the statement “. . . when the living entity is bewildered in his desires, the Lord allows him to fulfill those desires . . .” You have quoted, “The Lord engages the living entity in pious activities so he may be elevated. The Lord engages him in impious activities so he may go to hell . . .” So that is also originally the individual soul’s desire and as Supersoul the Lord is giving everyone the opportunity to go to heaven or to hell or to Vaikuntha if he so desires. For those who are hankering after material opportunities the Lord as Supersoul is giving them the opportunities to enjoy the material nature and the facility is being supplied by the material nature.
Similarly, a living entity who is desiring for spiritual upliftment, the Lord is giving him the opportunity of the Vedic literatures and the Spiritual Master. But His advice to all living entities is to give up all nonsense and everything else and surrender unto Him. The living entity by accepting one kind of opportunity is going to hell and by accepting the other kinds of opportunities he is going back to home, back to Godhead. So both opportunities are offered by the Lord. Therefore indirectly you can say that one is being sent to hell and one is being sent to the spiritual world by the Lord—but He is simply supplying the opportunities to everyone as he desires. The intelligent person therefore does not desire anything—he simply surrenders unto the Lord or he desires to serve the Lord and that is his greatest opportunity.
Desires evolve by association..
Sheeple
Beckoning Krsna – pls help me serve you
BG 2.50
A man engaged in devotional service rids himself of both good and bad reactions even in this life. Therefore strive for yoga, which is the art of all work.
“Man proposes and God disposes.” That is the sum and substance. But as a pure devotee of the Lord you should not propose—simply accept His proposal and surrender unto Him. So far the conditioned soul is concerned the same opportunities are there, but if he does not take advantage of the opportunity to elevate himself to Krsna Consciousness and chooses to misuse his independence for taking the opportunity to enjoy some material happiness, then he will remain conditioned as the Lord will allow him to fulfill those desires. The opportunity is always there, just as we are offering so many ways to become Krsna Conscious, but if you don’t take the opportunity what can I do. That is purposeful negligence of duty. The example may be given of a man who is sleeping. If he is actually sleeping, he may be wakened by various means, but there is no doubt that he must wake up. However, if a man is pretending to be asleep there is no way at all to rouse him up.
How to get those thoughts (material desires, fear, anxiety) out of our mind – is by constantly asking questions.. To pure devotees and getting answers from SP texts.
We all are born in ignorance.. Therefore if you look at panoramic view – real activity should be only Krsna Consciousness. Everything else is a complete waste of time..
Gradually with dovetailing slowly the material desires will reduce..
Tendency to be attracted to maya we get trapped.. Unwittingly..
Persona – identity..
If you are in BrahmaJyothi then you will not have a body you are like a spark of light.
Revatīnandana: That’s right. So the, the, the constitutional nature of the entities that naturally form brahmajyoti is the same as the constitutional nature of the jīvātmās that are forming the living entities?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Is comparison a small spiritual spark, that’s all. We are spark.
Revatīnandana: Am I…
Prabhupāda: So long he does not develop a body…
Revatīnandana: Yes.
Prabhupāda: …that body is also the same. So it remains as spiritual spark. But because it is spirit, it cannot remain in that impersonal stage.
Śyāmasundara: Hmm.
Prabhupāda: He wants to enjoy.
Revatīnandana: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So, so long he is forgotten, he develops a body which is called matter.
Śyāmasundara: Or else he develops a spiritual body? One or the other?
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. That he is spirit, spiritual identity, already.
Śyāmasundara: Oh.
Prabhupāda: But as you are developing material body, similarly, you can develop spiritual body
Revatīnandana: You know you.., you very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the, the spirit soul then goes into the brahmajyoti, he is considered still fallen…
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: …still fallen. That means the whole brahmajyoti is composed of fallen souls. You see my question? If, if I go there, I am a jīva soul, and I go to the brahmajyoti, I am still fallen.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: That means all jīva souls there are also fallen souls. That follows?
BS 5.16
Again when in course of the progressive evolution of mundane creation each universe is manifested, then in the principle of Śambhu, born of the space between the two eyebrows of Viṣṇu, there appears the manifestation of the personality of Rudra; yet under all circumstances Śambhu fully enshrines the mundane egotistic principle. The innumerable jīvas as spiritual particles emanating from the oversoul in the form of pencils of rays of effulgence, have no relation with the mundane world when they come to know themselves to be the eternal servants of the Supreme Lord. They are then incorporated into the realm of Vaikuṇṭha. But when they desire to lord it over Māyā, forgetting their real identity. the egotistic principle Śambhu entering into their entities makes them identify themselves as separated enjoyers of mundane entities. Hence Śambhu is the primary principle of the egotistic mundane universe and of perverted egotism in jīvas that identifies itself with their limited material bodies.
BG 13.3
O scion of Bharata, you should understand that I am also the knower in all bodies, and to understand this body and its knower is called knowledge. That is My opinion.
BS 5.35
Kṛṣṇa is the highest of all entities. In Him is an entity which is termed cit (spiritual) which is distinct from the principle of limitation. By His inconceivable power, He can at will create numberless universes. All the mundane universes owe their origin to the transformation of His external potency. Again His abode is beyond human conception; since all worlds, limited and spiritual (cit) exist in Him and He resides simultaneously in His fullness and entirety in all the atoms in all the worlds. All-pervasiveness is only a localized aspect of the majesty of Kṛṣṇa, the Lord of all. Though He is all-pervasive yet in His existence everywhere in a medium shape consists His spiritual Lordship beyond human conception. This argument favors the doctrine of simultaneous inconceivable distinction and nondistinction, and knocks down the contaminating Māyāvāda and other allied doctrines.
Everything depends on Association..
Letter to Mr. Taber June 9 1967 New York
A spirit soul is not impersonal, and because he is a person he has the latent desire for sense gratification; but in the material condition he does not know how to enjoy; therefore one should purify the senses being free of all material designation. In conditioned stage we are designated souls like “American,” “Indian,” “dog,” “demigod,” etc., but in pure consciousness or Krishna Consciousness, we are part and parcel of the Supreme Brahman. By Brahman realization, as you may have read in Bhagavad-gita: brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati [Bg. 18.54]. So in our pure stage when we understand that we are eternal servants of Krishna there is no more distress. Therefore the devotee prays: “My Lord, when shall I be freed from all material desires and be completely engaged in your transcendental loving service. At the present moment I am forlorn and nobody is my master. When shall I have You as my Supreme Master; then shall I joyfully wander over the whole universe knowing that You are my master.” Please therefore try to be in Krishna Consciousness and there will be no distress. Gradually as you realize this, you will experience it also; but the process is the same, both at the beginning and at the end.
BG 12.20
In other words, as long as one does not have the chance to associate with a pure devotee, the impersonal conception may be beneficial.